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From: Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com>
To: imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: 555FBFD2.1030800@ymail.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
response code.

Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
(After any existing messages, of course.)

RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:

      The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
      destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
      the same order.

Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
some other undefined order?

With Gmail I'm getting

A1 COPY 1:2 dest
A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]

and

A1 COPY 2,1 dest
A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]

The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
appear in the destination mailbox.

If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
mailbox?
Reply
E-mail headers
From: blong@google.com
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: CABa8R6tpd-2GPoSTX0_d8wnROvQpm4_zmMxconJDPPud3NNdww@mail.gmail.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
At least for Gmail, we always re-order the given set into sequence order
(which is the same as uid order) before doing any operation.  So, the
source UIDs in COPYUID are in the order in which they were copied.

Since a COPY in Gmail is the equivalent of adding a label to a message, the
message may already have that label, so it may already be in the recipient
mailbox.  We always return the destination UIDs in the order which matches
the source UID order, so in your example, source UID 1 is destination UID
2, and source UID 2 is destination UID 1.

When APPEND'ing a duplicate message, we update the UID assigned to the
original to be the newest UID in the mailbox (and that's returned with
APPENDUID), since we found clients typically assumed that was the case and
could get confused.

We could have done this with COPY, I guess, but we didn't see any client
issues in testing, so we left it this way since the performance is better.

Brandon

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com>
wrote:

> I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
> response code.
>
> Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
> the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
> allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
> (After any existing messages, of course.)
>
> RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:
>
>       The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
>       destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
>       the same order.
>
> Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
> mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
> the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
> some other undefined order?
>
> With Gmail I'm getting
>
> A1 COPY 1:2 dest
> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>
> and
>
> A1 COPY 2,1 dest
> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>
> The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
> are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
> appear in the destination mailbox.
>
> If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
> determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
> mailbox?
> _______________________________________________
> Imap-protocol mailing list
> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>
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From: bill.shannon@ymail.com
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: 555FD141.1060300@ymail.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
I *so* wish there were compatibility tests for servers, rather than "it didn't
break any clients so it must be good enough".  :-)

Ok, how about this.  If I sort the original message numbers, and sort the
returned source and destination UIDs, the result will be one-to-one, right?  The
first message number will correspond to the first source UID, which will
correspond to the first destination UID, right?  And all three sets will have
exactly the same cardinality?

Brandon Long wrote on 05/22/2015 05:17 PM:
> At least for Gmail, we always re-order the given set into sequence order
> (which is the same as uid order) before doing any operation.  So, the source
> UIDs in COPYUID are in the order in which they were copied.
>
> Since a COPY in Gmail is the equivalent of adding a label to a message, the
> message may already have that label, so it may already be in the recipient
> mailbox.  We always return the destination UIDs in the order which matches the
> source UID order, so in your example, source UID 1 is destination UID 2, and
> source UID 2 is destination UID 1.
>
> When APPEND'ing a duplicate message, we update the UID assigned to the
> original to be the newest UID in the mailbox (and that's returned with
> APPENDUID), since we found clients typically assumed that was the case and
> could get confused.
>
> We could have done this with COPY, I guess, but we didn't see any client
> issues in testing, so we left it this way since the performance is better.
>
> Brandon
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com
> <mailto:bill.shannon@ymail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
>     response code.
>
>     Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
>     the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
>     allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
>     (After any existing messages, of course.)
>
>     RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:
>
>           The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
>           destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
>           the same order.
>
>     Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
>     mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
>     the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
>     some other undefined order?
>
>     With Gmail I'm getting
>
>     A1 COPY 1:2 dest
>     A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>
>     and
>
>     A1 COPY 2,1 dest
>     A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>
>     The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
>     are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
>     appear in the destination mailbox.
>
>     If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
>     determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
>     mailbox?
>     _______________________________________________
>     Imap-protocol mailing list
>     Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu <mailto:Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu>
>     http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>
>

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From: alexey.melnikov@isode.com
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: B992E8DF-EF7F-4C29-9869-41C8B4728D2D@isode.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
Hi Bill,

> On 23 May 2015, at 02:00, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com> wrote:
> 
> I so wish there were compatibility tests for servers, rather than "it didn't break any clients so it must be good enough".  :-)
> 
> Ok, how about this.  If I sort the original message numbers, and sort the returned source and destination UIDs, the result will be one-to-one, right?  The first message number will correspond to the first source UID, which will correspond to the first destination UID, right?  And all three sets will have exactly the same cardinality?

Yes. I don't think it really matters in which order messages are copied, as long as the matching UIDs are returned correctly.

> 
> Brandon Long wrote on 05/22/2015 05:17 PM:
>> At least for Gmail, we always re-order the given set into sequence order (which is the same as uid order) before doing any operation.  So, the source UIDs in COPYUID are in the order in which they were copied.
>> 
>> Since a COPY in Gmail is the equivalent of adding a label to a message, the message may already have that label, so it may already be in the recipient mailbox.  We always return the destination UIDs in the order which matches the source UID order, so in your example, source UID 1 is destination UID 2, and source UID 2 is destination UID 1.
>> 
>> When APPEND'ing a duplicate message, we update the UID assigned to the original to be the newest UID in the mailbox (and that's returned with APPENDUID), since we found clients typically assumed that was the case and could get confused.
>> 
>> We could have done this with COPY, I guess, but we didn't see any client issues in testing, so we left it this way since the performance is better.
>> 
>> Brandon
>> 
>>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
>>> response code.
>>> 
>>> Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
>>> the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
>>> allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
>>> (After any existing messages, of course.)
>>> 
>>> RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:
>>> 
>>>       The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
>>>       destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
>>>       the same order.
>>> 
>>> Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
>>> mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
>>> the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
>>> some other undefined order?
>>> 
>>> With Gmail I'm getting
>>> 
>>> A1 COPY 1:2 dest
>>> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>> 
>>> and
>>> 
>>> A1 COPY 2,1 dest
>>> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>> 
>>> The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
>>> are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
>>> appear in the destination mailbox.
>>> 
>>> If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
>>> determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
>>> mailbox?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Imap-protocol mailing list
>>> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
>>> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Imap-protocol mailing list
> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
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From: blong@google.com
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: CABa8R6s6FQaj6tJRfkiZp+U1ybUeKsOYNb96BrFyiP4=WGavUA@mail.gmail.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
I don't think you can guarantee that all of the messages you asked to be
copied were, for example one of them may have been expunged by a different
client.

Not sure what the need to match the requested UIDs vs the source UIDs
returned, but they may not match.

Brandon
On May 23, 2015 3:52 AM, "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> On 23 May 2015, at 02:00, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com> wrote:
>
> I *so* wish there were compatibility tests for servers, rather than "it
> didn't break any clients so it must be good enough".  :-)
>
> Ok, how about this.  If I sort the original message numbers, and sort the
> returned source and destination UIDs, the result will be one-to-one,
> right?  The first message number will correspond to the first source UID,
> which will correspond to the first destination UID, right?  And all three
> sets will have exactly the same cardinality?
>
>
> Yes. I don't think it really matters in which order messages are copied,
> as long as the matching UIDs are returned correctly.
>
>
> Brandon Long wrote on 05/22/2015 05:17 PM:
>
> At least for Gmail, we always re-order the given set into sequence order
> (which is the same as uid order) before doing any operation.  So, the
> source UIDs in COPYUID are in the order in which they were copied.
>
> Since a COPY in Gmail is the equivalent of adding a label to a message,
> the message may already have that label, so it may already be in the
> recipient mailbox.  We always return the destination UIDs in the order
> which matches the source UID order, so in your example, source UID 1 is
> destination UID 2, and source UID 2 is destination UID 1.
>
>  When APPEND'ing a duplicate message, we update the UID assigned to the
> original to be the newest UID in the mailbox (and that's returned with
> APPENDUID), since we found clients typically assumed that was the case and
> could get confused.
>
>  We could have done this with COPY, I guess, but we didn't see any client
> issues in testing, so we left it this way since the performance is better.
>
>  Brandon
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
>> response code.
>>
>> Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
>> the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
>> allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
>> (After any existing messages, of course.)
>>
>> RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:
>>
>>       The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
>>       destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
>>       the same order.
>>
>> Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
>> mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
>> the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
>> some other undefined order?
>>
>> With Gmail I'm getting
>>
>> A1 COPY 1:2 dest
>> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>
>> and
>>
>> A1 COPY 2,1 dest
>> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>
>> The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
>> are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
>> appear in the destination mailbox.
>>
>> If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
>> determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
>> mailbox?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Imap-protocol mailing list
>> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
>> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Imap-protocol mailing list
> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>
>
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From: alexey.melnikov@isode.com
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: 16340255-4E76-482F-8F0B-7633746E3364@isode.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
> On 23 May 2015, at 20:30, Brandon Long <blong@google.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think you can guarantee that all of the messages you asked to be copied were, for example one of them may have been expunged by a different client.
> 
> Not sure what the need to match the requested UIDs vs the source UIDs returned, but they may not match.
> 
Correct. I was talking only about source and target UIDs in the COPYUID response.
> Brandon
> 
>> On May 23, 2015 3:52 AM, "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> wrote:
>> Hi Bill,
>> 
>>> On 23 May 2015, at 02:00, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I so wish there were compatibility tests for servers, rather than "it didn't break any clients so it must be good enough".  :-)
>>> 
>>> Ok, how about this.  If I sort the original message numbers, and sort the returned source and destination UIDs, the result will be one-to-one, right?  The first message number will correspond to the first source UID, which will correspond to the first destination UID, right?  And all three sets will have exactly the same cardinality?
>> 
>> Yes. I don't think it really matters in which order messages are copied, as long as the matching UIDs are returned correctly.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Brandon Long wrote on 05/22/2015 05:17 PM:
>>>> At least for Gmail, we always re-order the given set into sequence order (which is the same as uid order) before doing any operation.  So, the source UIDs in COPYUID are in the order in which they were copied.
>>>> 
>>>> Since a COPY in Gmail is the equivalent of adding a label to a message, the message may already have that label, so it may already be in the recipient mailbox.  We always return the destination UIDs in the order which matches the source UID order, so in your example, source UID 1 is destination UID 2, and source UID 2 is destination UID 1.
>>>> 
>>>> When APPEND'ing a duplicate message, we update the UID assigned to the original to be the newest UID in the mailbox (and that's returned with APPENDUID), since we found clients typically assumed that was the case and could get confused.
>>>> 
>>>> We could have done this with COPY, I guess, but we didn't see any client issues in testing, so we left it this way since the performance is better.
>>>> 
>>>> Brandon
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
>>>>> response code.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
>>>>> the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
>>>>> allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
>>>>> (After any existing messages, of course.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:
>>>>> 
>>>>>       The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
>>>>>       destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
>>>>>       the same order.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
>>>>> mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
>>>>> the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
>>>>> some other undefined order?
>>>>> 
>>>>> With Gmail I'm getting
>>>>> 
>>>>> A1 COPY 1:2 dest
>>>>> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>>>> 
>>>>> and
>>>>> 
>>>>> A1 COPY 2,1 dest
>>>>> A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>>>> 
>>>>> The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
>>>>> are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
>>>>> appear in the destination mailbox.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
>>>>> determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
>>>>> mailbox?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Imap-protocol mailing list
>>>>> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
>>>>> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Imap-protocol mailing list
>>> Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
>>> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
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From: bill.shannon@ymail.com
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: 55641351.8030608@ymail.com permalink / raw / eml / mbox
I'd like to be able to report the status of each message that was requested to
be copied.  If one of the messages was not copied for some reason, and so is
left out of the returned list of source UIDs, how do I figure out which one that
was?  Without a complete map from sequence number to UID, it seems that the
COPYUID response code for the simple COPY command may not be sufficient.


Brandon Long wrote on 05/23/2015 12:30 PM:
>
> I don't think you can guarantee that all of the messages you asked to be
> copied were, for example one of them may have been expunged by a different client.
>
> Not sure what the need to match the requested UIDs vs the source UIDs
> returned, but they may not match.
>
> Brandon
>
> On May 23, 2015 3:52 AM, "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com
> <mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Bill,
>
>     On 23 May 2015, at 02:00, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com
>     <mailto:bill.shannon@ymail.com>> wrote:
>
>>     I *so* wish there were compatibility tests for servers, rather than "it
>>     didn't break any clients so it must be good enough".  :-)
>>
>>     Ok, how about this.  If I sort the original message numbers, and sort the
>>     returned source and destination UIDs, the result will be one-to-one,
>>     right?  The first message number will correspond to the first source UID,
>>     which will correspond to the first destination UID, right?  And all three
>>     sets will have exactly the same cardinality?
>
>     Yes. I don't think it really matters in which order messages are copied,
>     as long as the matching UIDs are returned correctly.
>
>>
>>     Brandon Long wrote on 05/22/2015 05:17 PM:
>>>     At least for Gmail, we always re-order the given set into sequence order
>>>     (which is the same as uid order) before doing any operation.  So, the
>>>     source UIDs in COPYUID are in the order in which they were copied.
>>>
>>>     Since a COPY in Gmail is the equivalent of adding a label to a message,
>>>     the message may already have that label, so it may already be in the
>>>     recipient mailbox.  We always return the destination UIDs in the order
>>>     which matches the source UID order, so in your example, source UID 1 is
>>>     destination UID 2, and source UID 2 is destination UID 1.
>>>
>>>     When APPEND'ing a duplicate message, we update the UID assigned to the
>>>     original to be the newest UID in the mailbox (and that's returned with
>>>     APPENDUID), since we found clients typically assumed that was the case
>>>     and could get confused.
>>>
>>>     We could have done this with COPY, I guess, but we didn't see any client
>>>     issues in testing, so we left it this way since the performance is better.
>>>
>>>     Brandon
>>>
>>>     On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@ymail.com
>>>     <mailto:bill.shannon@ymail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         I'm unclear on the requirements around the COPY command and the COPYUID
>>>         response code.
>>>
>>>         Is there any guarantee that the order of messages in the COPY command is
>>>         the order they'll appear in the destination mailbox?  Or are they
>>>         allowed to appear in any arbitrary order in the destination mailbox?
>>>         (After any existing messages, of course.)
>>>
>>>         RFC 4315 says of the COPYUID response:
>>>
>>>               The source UID set is in the order the message(s) were copied; the
>>>               destination UID set corresponds to the source UID set and is in
>>>               the same order.
>>>
>>>         Exactly what order is that?  Is it the order in which the messages were
>>>         mentioned in the COPY command?  Is it the order they actually appear in
>>>         the destination mailbox (assuming it can be different)?  Or is it in
>>>         some other undefined order?
>>>
>>>         With Gmail I'm getting
>>>
>>>         A1 COPY 1:2 dest
>>>         A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>>
>>>         and
>>>
>>>         A1 COPY 2,1 dest
>>>         A1 OK [COPYUID 123456 1:2 2,1]
>>>
>>>         The order of the source UIDs is unrelated to the order the messages
>>>         are mentioned in the COPY command and unrelated to the order they
>>>         appear in the destination mailbox.
>>>
>>>         If I don't know the UIDs of the source messages, is there any way to
>>>         determine which message was copied to which UID in the destination
>>>         mailbox?
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         Imap-protocol mailing list
>>>         Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu <mailto:Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu>
>>>         http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>>>
>>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Imap-protocol mailing list
>>     Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu <mailto:Imap-protocol@u.washington.edu>
>>     http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/imap-protocol
>

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From: arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no
To: imap-protocol@localhost
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 12:34:55 -0000
Message-ID: 23e30726-1ae2-46da-abba-e50cdf1d3359@gulbrandsen.priv.no permalink / raw / eml / mbox
Bill Shannon writes:
> I'd like to be able to report the status of each message that 
> was requested to be copied.  If one of the messages was not 
> copied for some reason, and so is left out of the returned list 
> of source UIDs, how do I figure out which one that was?  Without 
> a complete map from sequence number to UID, it seems that the 
> COPYUID response code for the simple COPY command may not be 
> sufficient.

True. For that case you'll need to issue "FETCH ... UID" and then "COPY ... 
target" (without waiting). When you have received tagged responses for 
both, you know that your MSN-UID map is contains all the necessary UIDs and 
you can process the COPYUID response code completely.

Arnt
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